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Crimson
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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #45 on: Feb 24th, 2014, 10:38am »

on Feb 22nd, 2014, 3:02pm, Minibobini wrote:
How on earth would it encourage elitism? It's similar toa a ranking system without actually saying "This person is x times better than that person." I'm not saying that members should post terms like this in a manner that has them going, "HEY GUYS LOOK AT THESE 18 PARAGRAPHS I WROTE ONE TIME. I AM CLEARLY BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE HERE AND I WANT EVERYONE TO KNOW IT!" And no, I don't think it would break everyone up into their own little sections. A lot of times, advanced writers and roleplayers are absolutely more than willing to roleplay with people who are at different levels in their writing for a whole lot of reasons. Could be that they're feeling lazy, could be that they're looking for something light and fun, could be whatever. However, there are times when it's nice to be able to find somebody who is at or around the same level of writing/roleplaying/style as yourself.

Take me, for example. I probably could be considered an advanced lit writer/roleplayer, but I very seldom ever engage in roleplays that are structured to be that way. Why? There's a dozen and a half reasons, but more or the less the main reason just tends to be that I can't find other people who want to roleplay in that manner. I also know that there are boatloads of people out there who have only been roleplaying for a short amount of time, and I remember what it was like for me when I first started roleplaying. Anyway, as such, I tend to roleplay and write at a semi-lit/lit level. Doesn't really bother me any, although I have had people tell me that I write too much on occasion. *shrug*

I've seen this method used in a lot of places before, and it seems to be pretty successful. It's just a nice, easy, and pretty straightforward way of searching for a new/different roleplay partner. The searcher can state what kind of thing they're looking for, and searchees can see it and go 'oh, I don't really want to be in a roleplay where the other person expects 2000+ character responses all the time' or 'this person has a pretty good idea developed but doesn't want to write a lot for whatever reason, but it still looks like fun, so I think I'll give it a shot' or 'hey, here's somebody who wants to write short and sweet and to the point! That's exactly what I'm looking for, too!'

Can you point out what, exactly, about this style of rating makes it elitist compared to other things you're thinking of?


First of all, quick napkin math so that I can compare our ideas a little more easily:

Let's call the average number of characters per word 5.5 and the average amount of words per sentence 16. These are roughly equal to what we would see in writing. Again, this is napkin math so it doesn't need to be perfect.

So 5.5 * 16 = 88 characters/sentence.

And 88 * 8 = 704 characters in an 8 sentence post.

That's just for comparison, it's probably more for me than for you. However, what it does show us is that even at my proposed highest standard, I'm not asking people to go beyond your definition of "Lazy Lit".

=====

My biggest concern about elitism is something that you have already addressed, but that we have massively differing opinions about. While you may think that there will be a decent bit of intermingling between different levels of writing, I do not. I first came here in 2007 and I was 16 at the time. Much like Pajamas had said, I'm also absolutely embarrassed to look back at my roleplaying from that time period.

The important thing here is that I've been here long enough and I've seen enough people come and go to say that the more experienced roleplayers can and will avoid the less experienced. Asking people to identify themselves in regards to their roleplaying quality only serves to exacerbate the issue at hand. Not only is the individual in no way encouraged to improve, but we're just handing other people the tools to judge them. The good roleplayers and the bad roleplayers still end up in their own camps and nothing has really changed. We haven't solved the issue at hand. If anything, we've made it worse.

That is why I am against your idea.
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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #46 on: Feb 25th, 2014, 6:18pm »

I've been meaning (and trying) to make out a post regarding the recently submitted ideas as well as the current state of the debate. Finally having a little time on my hands as well as a clear head, I'd like to do that now.

Regarding my earlier post about the RP/story of the week/month... I've already stated my concerns with it, but I'd like to do it once more. I'm not in favor of adding this to the forums for reasons that have already been stated. I worry that the system would encourage elitism... The last thing we need here is someone thinking they are the best of the best and flaunting their abilities. To me, that is just as bad as someone who can't write at all...

Regarding my RP contest idea... I do see/understand how this could lead to a similar problem with the RP of the week/month which is why I will not press it too much. I do think it would be a unique way to break the flow here from time to time providing it's a voluntary contest, but I wouldn't consider implementing it for anything other than an entertainment change. That's all I'll say about that...

Regarding what's been said about role playing on other devices outside of a PC... As of this moment in time, I don't know what device other people role play on. I personally use my laptop and think a majority of the other users do as well. With that said, I do know there are some members who do role play using their phones, ipads, and other devices besides a computer. Is it fair of us to implement a system where role playing shouldn't be possible with other devices besides a computer?

I'm not saying that we would give anyone who uses their phone an excuse to post less. I am saying though that a plan needs to be incorporated that considers all of these devices. The goal is to increase writing quality, not discriminate against users based on what device they have.

Regarding Mini's idea... While I personally don't think that the idea of having members self-identify themselves is a bad idea, I do have some serious concerns regarding it... I wouldn't go so far as to argue that it encourages elitism per say as Crimson put it, but I do think it could set up a type of classism here...

Clarifying my concerns, having a system that has members identify their literacy level and what they are looking for in a partner won't go quite far enough to accomplish our goal. It may help as a starting point for those that want to improve. However, I am very concerned that people will simply use this system to find members who they would like to work with the most. Once that happens, I have concerns that this will start forming circles or even classes of good/bad writers. Once various circles have been formed, members may not be all that willing to break out to role play with others.

While my example may seem a bit extreme and even a bit generalized, I just want you to understand where I'm coming from. I'm not saying it's a bad idea at all. I am saying though that it may have unintended consequences to which need to be considered very thoroughly.

With all of that addressed, I realize this debate has been going on for a week and I haven't yet stated what I intend to implement. I have been thinking carefully about what I want to have done, but I haven't yet completely decided what route I will take in trying to implement a system to improve writing quality. I do know that whatever I decide will be implemented slowly over a 3 to 6 month period, but nothing else is official.

Because I am still considering my options, I am going to leave this debate/discussion open for a few days longer. Through this discussion, I have been able to see and consider many things I wouldn't have otherwise. I will hopefully have an official plan to put up by this weekend. Until that time, I encourage everyone to keep talking/debating what's been said as well as post any new ideas you might have. I will be watching closely and considering everything that is said.
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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #47 on: Feb 25th, 2014, 8:40pm »

Ooookay, Emiko. I know you want what is best for the site, but disabling the use of smartphones and tablets isn't it. A great deal of roleplayers (myself included) use their smartphones and stuff like that to access this site. While I will say that it is a bit tricky to get the amount of writing you have on your phone translated to the amount you will get on the site, I will say it isn't impossible. Some people may have trouble writing long posts, but that's why Google Drive and Notepad can be installed. It's tough, but not impossible.

If you eliminated everything but computers, you'd lose a lot of your roleplayers, and that would not be good for the site, no matter who they are.
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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #48 on: Feb 25th, 2014, 9:01pm »

on Feb 25th, 2014, 8:40pm, Prismatic wrote:
Ooookay, Emiko. I know you want what is best for the site, but disabling the use of smartphones and tablets isn't it. A great deal of roleplayers (myself included) use their smartphones and stuff like that to access this site. While I will say that it is a bit tricky to get the amount of writing you have on your phone translated to the amount you will get on the site, I will say it isn't impossible. Some people may have trouble writing long posts, but that's why Google Drive and Notepad can be installed. It's tough, but not impossible.

If you eliminated everything but computers, you'd lose a lot of your roleplayers, and that would not be good for the site, no matter who they are.


I think you've misinterpreted my post a tad bit. I'm not arguing that we ban the use of other electronic devices aside from computers when role playing. I'm actually doing the opposite by arguing that we have to have a system that is considerate towards those users.

I understand what I said might have been jumbled up, but what I was arguing is that the system that I want to put into place is considerate to those who do role play outside of a computer. I understand perfectly well that people who access the site through their phones and such will have a hard time posting to the standards set by Crimson's plan. That's why I said we need to have a system that considers these devices.

Probably should have made that a little clearer... Sorry about that. Again though, I'm arguing that we need a system that is considerate to members who role play with their phone without necessarily giving them a pass should I decide to use pieces of Crimson's idea. That was more or less what I was saying.
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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #49 on: Feb 25th, 2014, 9:05pm »

Ah. I'm sorry for my misinterpretation. Probably should have paid attention a bit better.

I like the idea, as long as you don't make it go too easy on us. That wouldn't be fair. But, yeah, I agree the standards should be different.
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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #50 on: Feb 25th, 2014, 9:23pm »

I was just going to throw in the idea of different sections of the forum for different kinds of technology... like Emiko, I can't imagine RPing on anything other then my laptop. However, I can easily see how it would be done, and it is much easier to type on a laptop then a tablet or phone. I also believe a 3ds is involved.

Maybe set up different sections where people use different technology to RP in different sections:
Computer
Tablet
Phone
Other

However, this might damage any rank system we implement.

I suppose I could say more. To Mini's idea, I wouldn't mind putting right on my profile how RPs I've done, or how many posts I've made, etc.

And now Crimson... elitism. I suppose my only question is... doesn't that happen anyway? I have had a few experiences where it has... but hey, not here, so thats why I just wanted to specifically ask.

Final note (I hope) let me just say I'm glad this discussion has gotten so big. Obviously its putting strain on Emiko, but this also shows that there are many of us that care about this site just as much as she does (while I would claim I care more, that is probably simply not true).

Thanks!

~BlockingMars
« Last Edit: Feb 25th, 2014, 9:24pm by Sparkles_7_7 » User IP Logged

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Crimson
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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #51 on: Feb 26th, 2014, 10:38am »

@Prismatic/Emiko - I would very much like to hear what your plan is to have different standards for different devices in a way that could not be easily exploited, because I frankly don't think a method exists to do so. The way I see it, someone posting on a phone is aware of and acknowledges the fact that it is slower to write on than a laptop or desktop computer.

I think it makes more sense to just say that they accept the consequences for their choice of medium. It's no different than an artist and choosing a medium for a drawing. If you're doing watercolor, you accept the consequences in things such as it being difficult to produce dark tones or make edits.

@BlockingMars - Yes, it does, and it will. I've had people refer to me as an elitist (especially when I was a lone mod back in 2009/2010 or whenever that was) which is the reason behind the custom title I jokingly gave myself. You'll never eliminate it, but what you can do is make a system that does not encourage it. Elitism was something that I considered heavily as I wanted to avoid encouraging it. That's why I think the veteran RPers shouldn't have to write as much when with newer RPers.

Can you write eight sentences per post when your partner is only writing two? Yes. Is it simple, easy, or fun? Not really. So I let them write half as much. Let me stress that again: HALF.

Without this, you're left with a system that encourages veteran RPers to avoid the newer ones because it places a needless additional layer of difficulty and encouraging elitism.
« Last Edit: Feb 26th, 2014, 3:08pm by Crimson » User IP Logged

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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #52 on: Feb 26th, 2014, 3:53pm »

(I'll just focus on responding to the things directed to me specifically. Hopefully that'll help.)

Good point. I suppose seperating users would cause it... it was just an idea that had occured to me. It takes care of the problem of people using more then just a laptop to RP. Doesn't really help with much else, though. I would think the Chatango chat keeps elitism from happening... but considering only a fraction of our users even know of its existence, I suppose relying solely on that would not be the best idea.

I would hope the "elites" that would eventually come from this would end up being people who are not the stereotypical elite. The elite only become a major problem to a site when they seek to avoid members they see as "below" them. The truth is, if the member wants to get to that level, if he/she aspires to be a great writer, they will fight to get there. (And yes, I did notice the joke.)

I notice a balance problem here, though. We want a system that will work, but we also don't have a lot of people enforcing said system. Using your idea of controlling how much people can post would work if enough people were watching... likewise, can't go with the opposite either, which is little to no moderation. We have to find a middle ground.

Would the seperate forums for devices create certain groups of people? Yes. Would I miss out on one amazingly amazing RP partner by adopting this system? Yes. That is a price I am willing to pay. It also splits up more power, giving certain mods control of certain parts of the forum. Again:
Computer/Laptop
Tablet/Phone (Could be split into two seperate ones
Other (Khypnotized, for example, uses a 3DS.)

Would it be difficult to find enough people to support this system (not only its implementation, but to ensure survival)? Yes. This requires at least twice the people we think we have now.

Just throwing my ideas out there. Also, Crimson, I know for a fact that everyone here is very grateful that you continue to share your viewpoints on how we approach this problem. Your insight, unlike mine, for example, is based more on experience from this particular website, and other RP sites like it.

Thank you for your time

~BlockingMars
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Crimson
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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #53 on: Feb 26th, 2014, 7:16pm »

I'll keep this post short and concise.

  1. Segregating people is a problem, not a solution. We are trying to avoid people splitting into their own camps and get everyone to intermingle in a way that is fair. This accomplishes a similar ends to elitism, except that it's mandated.
  2. People can and will lie about their method of posting in order to be held to lower standards. We should not put people on the honor system. We need to have a single standard that applies to everyone. If you choose to post from a different device, then accept the consequence that it will take you longer to post.
  3. Unless you have exhaustively questioned every member (which is unreasonable) in a manner in which nobody will give false information (which is unrealistic) then you do not know what "everyone" thinks.
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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #54 on: Feb 26th, 2014, 7:49pm »

At least I hope you realize what implications this will have.

Also, no need to be a downer on the compliment.
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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #55 on: Feb 27th, 2014, 05:20am »

@ Crimson: I am NOT arguing for a system that gives users of other electronic devices besides a computer a pass from whatever I intend to do. (Yes, a plan IS in the works...) There will be no double standards or separate rules for people who use these other devices. Everyone is going to abide by the same system and rules regardless of what device they use to role play/post here.

What I am arguing for is a system that is considerate to these users. That means that when I put forth and eventually implement what I'm planning, I will be trying to put in place a system that works for both computer and phone users alike. I honestly have no idea why everyone keeps misinterpreting that...
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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #56 on: Feb 27th, 2014, 10:39pm »

I apologize for double posting, but after doing a great deal of thinking, I've finally got together what I would like to do to improve the writing quality here on the forums. If I see a great deal of support for what I am about to propose, this is the pathway I will probably end up taking.

Now before I say anything about this plan, I want to thank each and everyone of you for taking part in this debate. All of the ideas and insight you guys have put forth have helped me tremendously. I've done my best to listen and consider every option that was put forth. After having done that, I have what I hope is the best approach we should take.

As I've said in an earlier post, what we need to improve the quality of writing is an incentive to improve as well as a pathway to get there. I've never once stopped looking at these elements when trying to formulate my approach to this goal. Through the various suggestions that were made, I think I've found that incentive.

I don't know how many of you would agree, but I do think some regulations need to be put in place that discourages bad writing. The fact is that without putting a few regulations in place to nudge people to take the initiative to improve, nothing is going to change. We could try everything to encourage that members try to improve, but without something to push them towards it, most never will even consider improving.

My plan is to put regulations in place that discourages poor writing quality. With that said, I don't think the regulations I want to put forth are all that unreasonable.

The most common thing I have heard here and seen over the years is that people can't stand role players that post a single sentence, better known as one-liners. To prevent this from happening in the future, I would like to implement a modified version of Crimson's plan. Understand though that I have said I am using a modified version of the idea.

As was proposed, I agree that the rank system should determine how much you should post, and the further up the rank you are, the more content you should put into each post. My own version of the ranking system and what is required is quite a bit different than what was proposed. My proposal is:

Ranks:
Rank 1 (0 - 499)
Rank 2 (500 - 999)
Rank 3 (1000 - 1499)
Rank 4 (1500 - 1999)
Rank 5 (2000+)

Requirements:
Rank 1: 100% of posts must be one complete sentence.
Rank 2: 90% of the posts must have one complete sentence with proper grammar and punctuation.
Rank 3: 90% of the posts must have two complete sentences with proper grammar and punctuation.
Rank 4: 90% of the posts should have three complete sentences or one paragraph with proper grammar and punctuation.
Rank 5: 90% of the posts should have one paragraph with proper grammar and punctuation.

If you read through my proposed ranking system, you will notice that some ranks say you must have a specific amount of sentences while other say you should have a certain amount of sentences. The reason for this is because the absolute minimum amount of sentences I want to see posted is two.

I realize what some of you might be thinking... I'm only going to require that people post up only two sentences and that's it? The answer to that question would be yes. I think everyone here would agree that people who only post one line aren't really role playing... So to solve this, once you reach a certain rank, you will be required to post a minimum of two sentences. You will have ample time though to get to that point. If you can't do it by the time it's required with as much time as I allow, something is seriously wrong...

I know some of you might think that this system is insanely generous and doesn't go far enough to do what we want it to do. I have a good reason for this. The main reason for all of this is because I want to slowly phase these requirements in and see how much stress it's going to be to maintain. My plan for phasing this in is as follows:

Around Mid-March... Everyone will start at Rank 1 regardless of post count. You will be required to do what is required for Rank 1 which isn't much...

Around April 1st... Everyone who has the appropriate post count will rise to Rank 2 and post what is required there. Pretty much good grammar and punctuation is expected.

Around May 1st... Everyone who has the appropriate post count will rise to Rank 3. It's on this date that I'll kick in the mandatory 2 sentence per role play post if you do happen to have the required post count.

Around June or July 1st... I will re-evaluate where we are and how this system is working. If people are responding positively, then a couple of months down the road, I'll increase the requirements a bit more. Understand though that the highest limit I will require at any point will be one single paragraph. I do think it's possible for computer and phone users alike to post one paragraph when role playing...

So to sum up what I've said with the regulations... Around May 1st, rank 3 (estimated at 1,500 posts) and up will be required to post a minimum of two sentences in their role plays. I'll be evaluating how this is working and how well we are maintaining it, and a little time down the road MAY increase the minimum requirement to one paragraph. The minimum requirement will NOT go over the one paragraph limit. I will only require one paragraph if the system is working and being well maintained.

Through this modified version of the plan, I think we can solve the biggest issue which is eliminating those who simply post one-line. It may sound a little silly, but what I want to do with these regulations is nudge the members, rather than force them. If a nudge isn't enough, then we will address it from there. At this point in time, I want to simply nudge people to do the right thing which is what I feel this approach will do.

With that long-winded response put out there, I'd like to move on. Through these regulations, I think we have the incentive to change. However, that still leaves us with the pathway to that change. To help those that want to improve, I have decided that I'd like to try and implement something related to my role play academy idea.

Let me start out by saying that I will not be officially having an academy here that teaches you how to role play... I will though have a small section of the forums that contains resources and guides on how to role play which I will personally write. Likewise, I'll allow those who are veterans to post up their tips to the newbies there. If someone is genuinely interested in improving, they can make a request there for guidance and work with a senior member in a type of mentor system.

I don't yet know how the mentor system will work entirely. However, I do think that we could find a few people here would love to help out the newer and inexperienced members improve by simply working with them. I know I've personally tried to branch out to the newer members and role play with them specifically. I think if people were willing, we could find members to be directly in charge of that. Even if we didn't want to have an official mentoring system, if some of the veterans would reach out the new and inexperienced, we could solve this problem as a community.

Now I realize I've said a lot here tonight, but let me just sum up right here what I want to do. The basics of my plan are this:

*We implement regulations that say you have to post a minimum of 2 sentences by a certain rank. Most members will have 2 months to get there and maybe a tad bit longer depending on your post count.
*Along with these regulations, we provide resources and advice for those seeking to improve. And if there is support, a mentor system will be available for the inexperienced.
*Four to five months down the road, we will reexamine how everything is doing. Depending on how things are doing, we will address things then.

So with all of that, this is pretty much my plan and what I would like to implement. I know it might not be a perfect plan, but it's what I personally feel would be the best way to approach this situation.

As with everything else, I'll leave this here for you guys to discuss and debate for a bit. If you support this plan, let me know. If you don't though, tell me and explain why you don't. If you have ideas how to make it better, tell me what you have in mind. This is the approach I plan to take though... Providing the support is there, I'll begin implementing it sometime in March.
« Last Edit: Feb 27th, 2014, 10:40pm by Emiko » User IP Logged

Preferences:
I. I'm mostly into Snake/Victim-type role plays.
II. I strongly prefer to be the victim.
III. I like soft vore.
IV. I do enjoy a little bit of foot-play, but not tickling.
V. I like participating in stories with a good amount of effort and details put into each post. <3
Crimson
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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #57 on: Mar 2nd, 2014, 4:51pm »

Emiko,

First of all, thank you for seeing the advantages behind a system that scales with the experience of the person that system is judging.

While I'm okay with some of the changes that you've made, the one that really does not give me good feelings about your proposed implementation is the whole must/should differentiation. Even if it's not entirely my preferences, if the last two requirements were simply changed into "must" then I'd be okay with that.

Perhaps eight sentences is too much to ask at this stage, but a mere two is being much too lenient on people. (This reminds me, you may not want to use "paragraph" in your requirements. Stick to sentences, especially when a single sentence can be a full paragraph.)

If the requirements were 0-1-2-3-4 complete sentences (I'm calling the first requirement 0 for the sake of simplicity) then I think we'd see enough reform. I simply fail to see how saying what people "should" do and not enforcing it will "nudge" people in the right direction in terms of quality. We already see it now. There's plenty of long-time posters, both current and in the past, who write very low-quality RPs. They "should" be/have been writing better as well, but that's not enough to actually change the way they act.
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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #58 on: Mar 3rd, 2014, 10:07am »

I think it's nailed down pat Emiko. From what I'm reading it sounds pretty fair and legit. I'm up for it and if I can help out, let me know.
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xx Re: Improving RP Quality...
« Reply #59 on: Mar 3rd, 2014, 6:02pm »

@ Crimson: The model that you put forth was pretty straight forward and quite solid to use as a base. More or less, all I did was modify it to be slightly more considerate towards users who use their phones as opposed to a computer.

As far as turning my should haves into must haves... If by June/July, things are running smoothly and people are responding positively to these regulations, I will consider implementing a time period for those recommendations to becoming actual rules. I just want to see how difficult this is going to be to maintain and how well people will respond to this new system before I put any further regulations in place.

For the time being, two sentences as a required minimum is a good enough start to measure how this system will work. With given time, I do hope that we can turn those two sentences into four or a paragraph of sorts. It's just all going to depend on how this system works three or four months from now.

@ CoilKing50: If you would like to help out, there are plenty of ways in which you can do so. Believe it or not, the simplest of things such as welcoming and helping newer members to settle in goes a long way. Also, stepping out of your comfort zone and working with the new and inexperienced members is a positive as well.

Frankly, there are a lot of ways that you can help and it's usually just doing something simple that can have the greatest impact. All big things have to start out from something that is usually very small and simple.
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